This episode is for anyone who has asked themselves why they're so invested in what is clearly outrageous, manipulative, and phony "reality" television shows.

I watch Real Housewives every weekday on my lunch break, and as I've gone through phases of watching with both fascination and disgust, I’ve asked myself: why do smart people love dumb tv? What is it that we’re drawn to? Why do we get so sucked into the drama? Is it aspirational or escapism or something darker or is it just not that deep?

And so I decided to explore that topic with the perfect guest: Matt Marr, cohost of the Reality Gays podcast. In this episode, Matt and I talk about our history of reality tv watching (starting with the Real World in the 90s), and we talk about how we think reality TV has changed culture, why we’re so invested in the lives of these reality TV personas, and so much more. We talked for over an hour and didn’t even scratch the surface of all that we could have discussed.

We do have an extended cut version of this episode over on the Secret Stuff patreon page, where Matt and I talk about our shared Oklahoma roots and I'll also be releasing a personal episode over there this week about my time working in reality television in the early 2000s.

You can listen to the Reality Gays podcast

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